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"BLACK MARKET" Domain Name Trade

Ashman

Top Contributor
I'm not the type of person who lets political or industry best interest get in the way of what I believe is a legitimate discussion. So here is the story.

Recent domain name discussions on this forum include utube.com.au and botox.com.au and were regarding their domain eligibility.

Utube.com.au has constantly been removed from registration and Botox.com.au was recently registered for over $3000 even though there is a word trademark registered. Both these domain names were registered via the drop catch service providers.

It is my opinion that the drop catchers are essentially dealing in prohibited goods, essentially black market products as they have no legal right to issue licenses for those domains (and others not included in this discussion) and they are just cashing in on a policy loophole. Actually it’s not even a loophole it just a vagrant disregard for auDA eligibility policy.

When you normally register a domain name through a registrar there is usually a 48 hour approval process or there is with my registrar anyway. I don't think the approval process is some arbitrary way of the registrar appearing to check domain eligibility nor should it be. An example being when I recently registered a domain I was required to provide further information regarding my eligibility to register the name, which I provided and subsequently was issued a license.

So here is the point I'm trying to make. The drop catch providers essentially bypass the approval process in their race to catch expiring domains. There is no approval process, no checking of eligibility and domains seem to be issued on first come first served basis.

The domain eligibility policy is then enforced retrospectively that is after the domain has been licensed and after the drop catchers deposit the proceeds of the sale in their ever increasing bank accounts.

The approval process for a domain names should require the registrar to check the eligibility of the registrant, not only that it is a close and substantial connection to the business name but in the case of domains registered for monetisation that the registrant has valid and current business credentials.

I have often heard that the drop catchers invest vast sums of money into their domain catching technology but how much do they invest into technology to enforce policy compliance. My guess = $0.

This retrospective policy enforcement which results in disputes and complaints is a massive pain and costly process for the businesses that do have the right to legally register domain names.

However, since the drop catcher’s are not checking domain eligibility they will just continue to profit and trade in "Black Market" domain names. What makes this process worse is that auDA are aware that this constantly occurs and they appear to take no action to stop this illegal trade by drop catchers.

When will we have a governing body that will enforce policy not retrospectively but before domain licenses are issue? If they don’t take action soon I can see the potential for legal proceedings not only against the registrars but against auDA.:eek:
 

FirstPageResults

Top Contributor
Slightly off topic.. but 48 hrs approval? Time to change registrars! What happens if the name gets registered by another person in the meantime?

---

Back on topic.. yes some registrars are more stringent than others, but the policy isn't as rigid as you make out.

4. APPLICATION OF POLICY RULES

4.1 It is the responsibility of auDA to preserve the integrity of the .au domain by ensuring that the policy rules are applied correctly and enforced as necessary. auDA reserves the right to revoke any domain name licence that has been granted, or subsequently held, in breach of the relevant policy rules.

4.2 It is the responsibility of all auDA accredited registrars, in accordance with the Registrar Agreement, to apply the policy rules set out in this document. Each domain name application must be checked for compliance with the relevant policy rules by the registrar before it is submitted to the registry for inclusion in the registry database. auDA has published guidelines for registrars to assist them in interpreting the policy rules outlined in this document.

4.3 It is the responsibility of all registrants, in accordance with their registration application and subsequent agreement, to ensure that they satisfy the policy rules set out in this document when submitting an application to register or renew a domain name in any of the open 2LDs. To that end, a registrant is required to warrant to the registrar that they satisfy the rules.

http://www.auda.org.au/policies/auda-2008-05/

The registrar must check for compliance, but it doesn't state by what means. Maybe one of our resident policy gurus can ellaborate for us.
 

Ashman

Top Contributor
Slightly off topic.. but 48 hrs approval? Time to change registrars! What happens if the name gets registered by another person in the meantime?
They say up to 48 hours but have never taken that long fortunately.

Each domain name application must be checked for compliance with the relevant policy rules by the registrar before it is submitted to the registry for inclusion in the registry database
So are drop catchers in breach automatically because I can't imagine that they have enough time to check eligibility compliance at the end of auctions.
 

Ashman

Top Contributor
It would be great to get a response from Drop or Netfleet or even a solicitor.
 
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acheeva

Top Contributor
This is a difficult topic because if someone were to establish a website (for a client or as a directory) promoting pipe benders, steel fabrication, exhaust systems or the sale of equipment for these purposes then it should be possible for them to challenge the prohibition on utube.com.au

It is not the responsibility of the registrars to be the judge in these instances

It may be possible for them to refund bids for names that are subsequently removed by AUDA - certainly a good PR exercise

Having said all of that every business has risks that participants need to learn & understand
 

findtim

Top Contributor
what amazes me as a newbie to domaining is that this utube.com.au website KEEPS coming up for purchase AND keeps coming up in different threads on DNT !

I've said it over and over again on different posts in the DNT forum, and thats the governing bodies just don't talk to each other, trademark doesn't talk to business/company rego who doesn't talk to AUDA.

Until thats solved this will continuely happen.

bloody "UTUBE STEEL VIC B2418***C " should register it and get rid of the issue.

(that is publically available info so i don't think i am wrong in posting it? )

BUT, the core issue still stays, we are all wasting a lot of time discussing this when all we need is a "rule"

i know i'm heading for hot water but its the only way we can move forward.

tim
 

DamianLondon

Top Contributor
I won't get into policy discussion as it is clear that the market has been opened up to monetization under certain conditions, which as a domainer in the .AU space for 15+ years I only celebrate.

RE: "It is my opinion that the drop catchers are essentially dealing in prohibited goods,"

Totally disagree with this statement and it is in short a generalisation. I and many others have picked up a ton of domain names that could not possibly be classified as prohibited goods. Policy states that some names "e.g. misspellings" are, and the people who continue to register these names need to review the policy. It is simple. It is up to the individual registering the domain name to determine whether or not they have the right to do so, if they are in breach then they will be ultimately dealt with.

However there are some domain names which need to receive a classification that disallows them from being registered. My understanding is that there is already a list of names that are banned from being registered. This list needs to be improved.

We really don't want to go back to policies of the 90's where you had to have a registered company name or business name which closely matched the domain name being registered. This stalled the growth of the .AU market.

We need to ensure .AU has an identity worldwide and can continue to grow. The current AuDA policies allow this.
 

DavidL

Top Contributor
Wow - dramatic title!

Couple things to note:

1) What are drop catchers - they are simply registrars who are very fast as registering domain names. They will charge a premium for this service for sought-after names but essentially they are just registrars.

Now, ALL registrars in Australia (even your 48 hour one) will allow a registrant to register 'utube.com.au' or 'botox.com.au'. Believe me, no registrar spends hours assessing a particular domain for potential infringment and then spends further hours investigating a registrant to see if they comply.

Remember the vast majority of PDs, infringing names etc are registered through a normal registrar rather than a drop catcher. You only have to look at the drops themselves to find dozens of dodgy looking names dropping, the vast majority of which don't get a bid.

So, you should modify your statement to:

It is my opinion that registrars are essentially dealing in prohibited goods, essentially black market products

2) Secondly, you need to understand that it's not a case of black and white whether a company is in breach of a domain name. Just because a domain has a TM within it (or is the euqivalent of a TM) doesn't mean it's automatically a 'black market' domain name. It takes considerable effort in many cases to decide whether this is the case or not.

I've personally been on the receiving end of a couple of different complaints about domains I had registered that had household name TMs in them. The complainants, being multi-billion dollar companies put months of effort in trying to prove that the domain was in breach. One of them hired a PI to investigate and both delivered several hundred page submissions. However the independent panel found that the respondent (me) was entitled to hold the domain.

Can you really expect any registrar should provide the same rigour in assessing rights to a domain name prior to registration.
 

helloworld

Top Contributor
Interesting thread. Does anyone know what happened to facebook.com.au? That domain was originally owned locally.
 

payattention

Archived Member
How exactly did he breach eligibility? Sounds more like sour grapes given your name calling of him. You seem to believe you need a registered business name or trademark but that isn't the case.
 

neddy

Top Contributor
What inspired me to start this discussion was a domain name closely related to my business was recently purchased on Drop by T***** S***** Pty Ltd (auDA Member). I had won the bidding on Netfleet for the domain but did not cover my bases on Drop and Drop snapped it up.

The domain is not a generic term but a 3 letter acronym. Latter I check the whois record and found that T***** S***** Pty Ltd registered it under that name. There is no close or substantial connection to the domain name and the domain cannot be used for monetising.

I sent an email to Matt G***** from T***** S***** and he told me they purchased the domain for a website they were intending to develop. They had no registered business name or trademark for the domain name so they just decided to buy it without any eligibility. This guy should know better being an auDA member.

I advised him I would be making a complaint and his response was that we could have come to an arrangement (no cost involved) if I gave him some time. I don't deal with scum bags.

So the issue now is that I am the person who has to go through the process of making a complaint and following up and waiting for the domain to reappear and then trying to win it again all because some tosser thought he would be a smart ass and breach auDA eligibility policy. Guys like Matt G***** should be suspended from purchasing domains. He is a auDA member and in my opinion a disgrace to the governing body.

Please don't come on here and make unsubstantiated and uneducated attacks on the integrity of other members.

Matt G***** is a member of DNT and has been for some time. I have never heard anyone say a bad word about him. For you to refer to him as a tosser, smart ass
and scumbag is simply not acceptable (particularly as you don't seem to have all the facts).

May I suggest you have a good read of auDA policy and try and understand eligibility and the "close and substantial" rule - plus the domain monetisation policy.

If you want to have a civil debate and raise pertinent issues on here then I have no problems - but please lose the vitriol.
.
 
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DavidL

Top Contributor
I was always interested to see if they got paid for it.

From what I remember, the site was operating well before the rise of FB. I remember looking at it and thinking these guys could be getting a knock at the door with a big cheque to give it up.

But then there started being Adsense ads on the website. IMO this was a risky strategy as it could be claimed that these ads were trying to take advantage in the increase in traffic that the brand Facebook must have been driving.

Bit like www.utube.com have done.

So not sure whether it was ultimately wrestled off them for any compensation or not.

What inspired me to start this discussion was...

Sour grapes that your own drop catching business didn't take off?

http://www.webpark.com.au/expired-domain-names

Probably the same reason you started this thread:

http://www.dntrade.com.au/drop-vs-netfleet-t4946.html

Now we have more sour grapes about missing out on a domain? I'd suggest rather than hitting out and blaming everybody else, you should step back and try to learn how to get better at whatever it is you do.

You've got a nice little website there so keep working on it, learn from your mistakes and realise that you have the same opportunity as everybody else and you'll do well. Good luck!
 

FirstPageResults

Top Contributor
Please don't come on here and make unsubstantiated and uneducated attacks on the integrity of other members.

Matt G***** is a member of DNT and has been for some time. I have never heard anyone say a bad word about him. For you to refer to him as a tosser, smart ass
and scumbag is simply not acceptable (particularly as you don't seem to have all the facts).

May I suggest you have a good read of auDA policy and try and understand eligibility and the "close and substantial" rule - plus the domain monetisation policy.

If you want to have a civil debate and raise pertinent issues on here then I have no problems - but please lose the vitriol.
.

Totally agree, well put Ned
 
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Ashman

Top Contributor
If you want to have a civil debate and raise pertinent issues on here then I have no problems - but please lose the vitriol.
Ned is that your opinion with your "Legal Hat" on ?

Sour grapes that your own drop catching business didn't take off?
David I have never said anything about starting or wanting to start a drop catching business. I personally think the fewer the better. I simply list expired domains on my website that can be manually registered if they are still available.
 
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findtim

Top Contributor
webpark you can't be judge and jury, you are bridging on slander so be careful.

pick up the phone and sort it out or move on.

tim
 

neddy

Top Contributor
Ned is that your opinion with your "Legal Hat" on ?

<snip>

As for anyone who is going to have a go at me for voicing my opinion thats your right. As they say birds of the feather flock together.

No, it is my opinion as Administrator of this forum.

We don't often find need to refer to the "rules" of the forum, but in this case you may care to have a read: http://www.dntrade.com.au/rules.php


DNTrade (DNT) both welcomes and thanks all of you for being a part of this growing community. In order to keep the forums running well and to prevent problems, please follow these simple rules. If you have any questions or problems, please feel free to contact Admin either by P.M. or by email to admin@dntrade.com.au.

  1. While debate and discussion is fine, please treat fellow members in a respectful and adult manner. All members should respect and adhere to the promotion of harmony within the community. We are great believers in free speech, but disruption of harmony is not good!

  2. No "flaming". Please do not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member.

  3. No "trolling". Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles, signatures and avatars.

As I said before, happy for you to voice your opinion anytime about anything, but please lose the vitriol. (This is a community where we try and help each other out by sharing info, knowledge and tips).

If you feel you can't do that, then you are welcome to go elsewhere.
.
 

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