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Highlight Aftermarket Domain

Discussion in 'Netfleet.com.au' started by johno69, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. CyberClick

    CyberClick Membership: Trader

    Apr 20, 2009
    Likes Received:
    An extra button to be able to ONLY show ama's or ONLY show expiring would be useful. This allows you to still mix them in the main list but also gives the option for potential bidders to easily see what the lay of the land is. As I said previously, ama domains I would have bid on passed in this week as I thought they were expiring.

    Cyrus, this is your barbecue man and it tastes good. But I was just sayin' to Mr Dog over here, that if it was my barbecue ... I'd make it as easy as possible for bidders to bid.
    1 person likes this.
  2. Rhythm

    Rhythm Membership: VIP

    Sep 25, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Please tell me you used voice recognition to type that. :D
    3 people like this.
  3. Chris.C

    Chris.C Membership: VIP

    Sep 23, 2010
    Likes Received:

    And +1 to that too! The NetFleet BBQ does taste good! And it's tasting better all the time...

  4. AnthonyP

    AnthonyP Membership: VIP

    Jul 11, 2011
    Likes Received:
    I will do my best to address all your comments here.
    Glad we agree that there is a potential for cluttering.

    If we have to do anything to reduce the clutter then this effort needs to be balanced against your perceived upside. So lets see what is needed in your opinion to prevent the top of the auction being cluttered with reserve not met domains

    If I start introducing limits again. In a few days I'd have a bunch of support tickets asking why there is a limit and whinge whinge whine I want to list more!... In fact in a few paragraphs time you will be praising the removal of the other limitations. So straight off we have an increase in support tickets relating to the limits to consider.

    You are assuming that big portfolio holders are the only people selling domains. Fortunately for us this not true and we have had over 300 clients have a go at the auctions so far and we have over 8000 clients using the domain catalogue. This collective group of sellers can easily clutter the interface and when I make changes they produce a huge number of support tickets asking why things have changed.

    I've stated before what I am not scared of domains getting turnedin, but I do not want them at the top of the list. In my opinion when the top 10 domains in the auction turn out to have crosses on them day after day even with 90 ticks underneath it will start to undermine the perceived ability of the system to produce sales and buyers will start to look for a more successful method of buying domains.

    Putting aside the assumption that only domainers/portfolio holders sell domain names which I have already addressed. No one really knows the value of a domain name until it is sold, and if you look at the NZ expired domain market you will notice that often the top domains do not actually expire, this is because they are renewed at the last possible moment as the current owners are using the auction systems to get an idea of the value of their domain name. It is an incredibly frustrating experience for a buyer and it happens everyday in the NZ market.

    You throw that comment in there and you are telling me not to be scared ;-) The expired domain market is very much dependent on the supply of domain names, sometimes it is very exciting and there are great names all the time and sometimes it is very dull. The aftermarket sales in January where very exciting names when compared to the Expired ones.

    You might be right about the AMA domains being more attractive at this point in time (which is great) but I think you will find that the reason you rock up at 1 or 2PM is because you know that the domains are going to sell... this is the moment of truth for those domains and it is what makes it intriguing. The urge to watch domains not meeting reserves is far less compelling.

    Serious exposure? How about the seller of Watches.com.au putting a "this domain is for sale" banner on their domain pointing to the listing. This is more likely to produce a sale than me letting it sit at the top of the daily auction for 24 hours.

    I personally think the buy now price on Accommodation.com.au at $2.376 million would scare people and if it only got a few bids because people might assume the reserve is also very high this would look very bad.

    Failed auction sales are about as unexciting and unhelpful as you can get, can you imagine if we had a huge buzz leading to a failed sale every single month?

    We are seeing successfull aftermarket auctions on a daily basis which are building up a head of steam and are starting to drive interest, changing the tactic right now while it is building momentum is not likely to help.

    My philosophy is that you don't get to the top of a mountain by heading straight up the mountain. You might call it fear, I might define it as caution and ensuring that I don't find myself 1/2 way up a mountain out of breath and heading backwards. One could argue that the very reason we got so far could be because we are taking our time and ensuring that the idea has momentum before trying to turn again.

    It takes many years to have an overnight success.
  5. Chris.C

    Chris.C Membership: VIP

    Sep 23, 2010
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    LOL, I'm not completely oblivious to potential downsides...


    And I go get that it is tough for NetFleet to serve three separate stakeholders (buyers, sellers and itself) and that sometimes you can't make all three happy at the same time. But I'm always trying to consider all positions when I make suggestions.

    Just tell the whingers politely, "we understand your frustration, and welcome you to list your domains for auction elsewhere"... at which point they will shut up because they will realise NF is pretty much the only game in town when it comes to auctioning AU domains.

    And as I mentioned you will always have the canned response of "We'd like to remind you are welcome to add an UNLIMITED number of "no reserve" domains to the auction on any given day".


    That should handle most of the complainers, and even they get tired of complaining eventually.

    And lets not forget just because someone sends you an selfish complaint doesn't mean you HAVE to respond. I'd just ignore them. Nor are you obliged to explain every decision to everyone.

    And like I said the initial limit would just be precautionary. I suspect after a couple of weeks of trialing it the data would show that your auction wasn't being flooded and you could safely push the limit up to 5 or 10.

    And I think once people were allowed to add 10 domains with reserve per day even if they had to liquidate 100 domains they could just spread it out over 10 days and it'd be fine.

    You could also look at allowing people to apply for limit increases above 10, with the view that if they have quality domains and they have a history of setting reasonable reserves that get results then you could give them the ability to add greater than 10 at a time.

    You could even say things like you won't approve anyone for an increase unless they have a clearance rate of 20%+ or something.

    Firstly I think that's awesome!

    Well I know I'm one of those 300, and I'd probably throw a few domains up on the AMA every few weeks. So if I assume I'm typical, then is it fair to say that on any given day there is probably only between 10 - 30 clients who put domains up on the AMA?

    And I think it's safe to say that there has never been a day where even 100 of those 300 have put domains up for auction. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    So once again, WORST case scenario 100 people put 3 domains up for auction - that's not going to clutter it to the point where it starts negatively affecting results.

    (LOL - I just re-read the sentence above and realised how ironic it is that we are talking about 100 people putting domains up for auction on the AMA is a tragedy - the reality it is a massive triumph and a GREAT problem to have)

    Once again, I get that you are just being cautious in seeing the "potential" downside, but I just feel the current "reality" doesn't reflect this being a likely result or justify the negativity and I think the upside is SUBSTANTIAL, not just for NetFleet and domainers, but the industry as a whole.

    I honestly think the AMA is the best thing that's happened in AU domaining industry because it's given domain owners the ability to liquidate their domains and recoup some of their investment. I don't know about everyone else, but being able to quickly and easier SELL domains, definitely gives me more confidence when it comes to BUYING domains also.

    And I always like to mention that when I'm selling domains to retail buyers as well so that they know that even if they are paying $2000 for a domain, if their project doesn't work out, they could turn around and get a lot of that back tomorrow if they put it up for auction on NetFleet. And that in a few years time there is every chance the domain will be worth more than what they bought it for today!

    So I tend to believe the better you can make your platform for sellers the better it is for buyers also.

    And I'm not saying their won't be problems with these ideas, it's just my belief is that with any business there are always going to be problems (but if there weren't problem people wouldn't pay to have them solved) so it's our jobs as businessmen to cost effectively solve those problems to delivery better value for all stakeholders.

    From my perspective the AMA's problem at the moment is that it isn't an enticing enough platform for domainers to list their premium domains, because the lack of exposure/interest that AMA domains get because they aren't listed on the main page when they have reserves.

    And on the flip side, listing domains up for no reserve auction is very risky for domainers because Snapper results can be very fickle.

    And at the same time NetFleet doesn't want to create a disappointing experience for buyers either, which it fears will happen if the auction is flooded with domains that pass in...

    Solving the sellers fears is easy, just allow reserves and put their domains on the front page.

    Solving the buyer's disappointment from passed in auctions is a bit harder, but I think it comes back to creating a situation of "maximising the chances" of the deal getting done (even if the domain isn't won on the auction itself).

    Firstly, sellers need the ability to push their domains to "on the market" status (or to remove/lower the reserve mid auction).

    Remember seller's biggest fears are that their domain will sell too cheap, if most sellers are like me and sincerely want to get a deal done then there comes a point where you are like "90% is good enough for me" lets just put it on the market.

    Secondly, I think if the auction passes in the reserve price should be instantly revealed to the top bidder and offered as a "buy it now" option. This would be like "winning the option to negotiate with the seller".

    If you really wanted to get a result ASAP you could just reveal the reserve and give the buyer 5 minutes to accept it.

    Thirdly, I'd give the buyer the option to extend his top bid for 24 hours (or you could even make this the default and instead give the buyer the right to opt out of the 24 hour extension). I suspect A LOT of sellers given time to think might lower their price expectations.

    Of course these suggestions won't make everyone auctions a success but they will go a LONG way to improve the clearance rates with serious sellers.

    Here is an example:

    A couple of weeks ago I listed a domain on the AMA that reached $402, my reserve was $499 and that bid was made 24 hours prior to the auction ending.

    I sincerely wonder if I had of been able to push it to the front page for the final 24 hours to get additional exposure whether it would have gone on to reach the $500, $600 or $700 I had hoped it would achieve all along.

    Or if it had of passed in at $402 and the buyer has seen that I only wanted $499 for it whether they would have been willing to opt for the "buy it now" option if it had been given to them.

    Or if I had been given the chance whether I would have woken up the next morning and reflected on the offer of $402 and just decided to take it and move on with my other projects.

    All of these things can be automated. All of these things would greatly help buyers AND sellers meet middle ground. And whenever ever buyers and sellers meet middle ground NetFleet makes money.

    I can't speak for everyone else but the VAST VAST majority of my domains were bought either at an auction or by hand registering.

    I buy domains via these methods because negotiating for them is often a PAINFUL experience and you normally pay quite a premium.


    As someone who has bought domains via negotiating, Snapper, the AMA and hand registering I can honestly say there are dozens of domains in the standard catalogue that either I, or my clients would love to own, but we don't waste our time chasing them after we throw them an initial offer because we think they are probably like most domainers... dreaming.


    So if I was to see some of those domains go to auction, the first thing I'd be thinking is:

    F**K YEAH! This guy who has been sitting on some prime real estate for years which I've always wanted is finally a genuine seller. And all I have to do is rock up at 1pm put in my best bid and at worst I'll get to see his reserve and a chance to "buy it now" with no negotiation.

    And what's even better is if the auction passes in, the seller finally gets the reality check they probably always needed, and they now know you are the guy who is prepared to pay the most, and the buyer is back in the drivers seat.

    I've been buying domains on expiry auctions for 3 years now. Over that time there has been a marked decline in the quality of domains dropping. I suspect it is because businesses are naturally wising up to the importance of their domains.

    The AMA and the catalogue will be the future of NetFleet sales. It's just the natural progression.

    HAHA quite ironically these day I watch the AMA results more because they are often dealing with far bigger numbers and because those results aren't being recorded anywhere.

    Knowing what something "doesn't sell for" is just as important as what it does.

    HAHA now you are cracking open a whole new can of worms...


    Do you know how many AU domainer holders would park their domains with NetFleet if you guys offered a reasonable alternative!?!

    You are 100% right parked pages do generate inquiries (as many if not more than the NetFleet catalogue)! I got one this morning!

    If NetFleet had a simple parking page that listed the sale price or encourage offers as well as had a means of generating income (to help fulfill the AUDA policy) I'm sure LOTS of those 8000 standard catalogue clients would make the switch.

    Instead all my domains that I haven't developed are parked with Fabulous, who simply have a tab on the page that allows people to enquire about buying the domain.

    Obviously you guys would be pushing for a sale more with your parked pages and I think this page is a great example:

    Example.com.au is For Sale

    If I was you guys I'd be revamping your parked pages ASAP!

    I'm sure you guys have already thousands of domains hosted with NetFleet (what is it, 10k? 20k? 30k?. A simple bulk nameserver change from just a few of your bigger clients would see dozens of new offers coming in everyday!

    It will definitely be one of those things you do and then realise, OMG I wish we had done this years ago..


    Firstly I wouldn't display BINs on the auction page itself because I think it's is too distracting.

    And I actually don't list BINs on my auctions for precisely that reason.

    Plus I see that as a "sellers problem" and if they do that they will learn pretty quick that buyers won't waste their time if they think you are a "dreamer".

    I know the LAST thing I'd want as a seller is for buyers to think I'm an unmotivated seller. I know that the WORST case scenario under the new system would be for me to put a domain up for auction, with a reserve of $5000 and then for bidding to reach $150, then the winning bidder getting offered the reserve as a "buy it now" option only to see that I was looking for $5000!

    ...they'd just laugh and never even speak with me again because they'd know there was just no chance of us finding middle ground!

    And I as a seller I would have just blown the best chance to sell the domain to the most willing buyer in the current market.

    If they had bid $150 and seen that I want $250. Then we'd be in the same ballpark and I'd think there is every chance that we'd find middle ground.

    And let's not forget that business is NEVER done unless it is good for both buyers and sellers.

    So even if the buyer bids $150, if he ends up paying $220. That is still an outcome that everyone is happy with or it wouldn't have happened.

    That said I'm sure if the owners of Accommodation.com.au put their domain to auction they wouldn't have $2.376M as their reserve.

    But they are just as unexciting for seller too!

    I know, if I wasn't making sales I'd stop wasting my time listing them.

    And even if the clearance rate was only 25% that would still be A LOT of big domains selling every month.

    I could be wrong, but I suspect that interest in the AMA will reach a certain level, but then plateau (if not fall away), because it won't achieve the "good results" that would motivate sellers to utilise it more.

    I know this happened with the past versions of the AMA. Granted this version is much more seller friendly.

    Right now it's a good tool for "desperate sellers" or "super motivated sellers" to liquidate their lower quality domains via the AMA using no reserve.

    High quality domains aren't being listed because of the low probability of a decent result because firstly they don't get he same exposure as Snapper domains and secondly because there is no post auction negotiations when the domains pass in.

    The AMA will remain a platform for people who need to "liquidate" domains, but it won't become a platform for holders of decent domain portfolios to sell their domains until the above changes are made, but these are the domains that NetFleet really want listed because they generate far better commissions.

    I think the AMA will be successful when the median value of domains sold on it is higher than $200. That's when you will know good domains are being listed regularly and its not just being used to liquidate mediocre domains that are not worth the time to find end users for.

    LOL I'm happy to have that "argument" with you, and even without the data in front of me, I'm still very confident that NetFleet's fastest periods of growth have come right after the introduction of new features, not because they kept everything the same old same old.

    For me the above changes make sense for all stakeholders involved.

    Indeed it does, but the best time to start working towards that success was yesterday.

  6. Chris.C

    Chris.C Membership: VIP

    Sep 23, 2010
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    No response? Case of TLDR?
  7. AnthonyP

    AnthonyP Membership: VIP

    Jul 11, 2011
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    TL;DR and on Friday afternoon too!


    Your input it really good, I just wish I had it during the design phase. You are asking to change too much, too late. Most of these ideas are very hard for me to implement now and/or I cannot see them making a significant impact to our bottom line.

    Your point about the parked page solution is valid and has been on my TODO list for a few weeks! I will get cracking on it now.
  8. Chris.C

    Chris.C Membership: VIP

    Sep 23, 2010
    Likes Received:

    Fair point.


    Yeah I 100% get that redesign and changes can be a pain in the ass and that it's generally much more cost effective to batch changes.

    What do you think of creating a thread requesting suggestions and compiling a public NetFleet to do list here on DN Trade to help collect a bunch of changes over a few months then smash them all out in one hit?

    Whilst I think all of the suggested changes offer NetFleet a substantial ROI over time some might be higher yielding than others given they are easier to implement.

    Which of the following changes would be the easiest to implement?

    • Sellers being able to push their domains to "on the market" status (or to remove/lower the reserve mid auction).
    • The reserve price being revealed to the top bidder and offered as a "buy it now" option.
    • Giving the top bidder the option to extend his top bid for 24 hours to allow post auction negotiations.

    Look forward to it!

  9. johno69

    johno69 Membership: VIP

    Nov 29, 2008
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    auDA Member:
    I got stung by this again today. There was a domain I was somewhat interested in. I was going to throw a last second bid at it as to not bring it to the attention of everyone else.

    Turned out I was busy and not able to get near a PC at the time of the auction. The domain did not sold receive any bids.

    Anyway, I now realise it was an aftermarket domain. And of course the seller gives me a bit of a story and it's magically worth a lot more.

    Meh, I wished him luck.

    But it's a sale gone begging none the less.