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Advertising To Sites On Google AdWords For The Same Phrases

Discussion in 'PPC Advertising' started by Chris.C, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. snoopy

    snoopy Membership: VIP

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    It isn't going to bring bids down, the result will be an overall higher CTR with a higher CPC as well because you'll be bidding against yourself. It is a way of paying more to try and competition out.

    This is called trying to find a loophole, wouldn't expect Google to be kind if they detect it.
     
  2. Snooks

    Snooks Membership: Community

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    LOL, very interesting "guess" at what some of your competitors are doing :) lol
     
  3. findtim

    findtim Membership: VIP

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    auDA Member:
    Yes
    if your cost per click is high and your click through rate is high but your conversion rate is low then how much is it actually costing to make a sale?

    its pretty basic stuff which i know you know so obviously i didn't explain myself well

    i have a small grip on english, a little greek and french but i'm gonna have to build up on me "snoopy"

    tim
     
  4. DnEbook

    DnEbook Membership: VIP

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    different folks , different strokes ..............see what i did

    :rolleyes:
     
  5. Snooks

    Snooks Membership: Community

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    But eventually if each your 3 sites reduced there bids, then the top bid would also reduce. So i think you could gradually reduce the bid value unless another company stepped in and kept the bidding honest:)
     
  6. findtim

    findtim Membership: VIP

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    auDA Member:
    Yes
    yesthat should be true but the top 3 tend to rotate regardless of bid so you would really have to be on the ball.

    just remember the top listing is not always the top bidder, i've bid crazy amounts compared to others and still can't get to number one, eg: average click is $2 but i will pay $50 and still can't get to number 1 ? , it gets back to "quality score" , i think it needs to be VERY calculated planned campaigns , if i was to do it in your business i'd start MONTHS out from xmas, build your quality score , only search your website on google if you are prepared to CLICK as google will pick up you are not interested and change ads on you ( using your IP ) , i'd get onto anybodys computer you can ( different ip) and click on your ads to build your quality score, yes it cost you money but think of it as long term gain.

    once you are there its actually not hard to stay there as PEOPLE take over and sales happen, the hardest bit is getting there.

    i've got a site that ticks over and rotates in that top 3 adwords, i did what i just said 4 years ago and haven't touched it since.

    i know its scary but "use your own money to get to the top "

    another way to do it is place adsense on other sites you own, then click through from them, this way at least you get some money back.

    its not black hat as google is making money and you are cool at playing the bill.

    i'm SURE people will disagree with me, but its worked for me..... and still does.

    tim

    ------------

    story:

    a new client has been paying $750 a month to sensis ( sensless ! ) , i beat them in adwords within a month at $45 a month with more CTR ! where did his other $700 go ?????

    commissions, and they didn't set up negative keywords for him :eek: so he was showing up EVERYWHERE, hundreds of klms from where he could sell ( as it was a franchise )

    tim
     
  7. Snooks

    Snooks Membership: Community

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    Thats the important thing....OPTIMISE your campaign and tune it to your demographics. Its taken a while to get it right on my dart site....well 3 years:)....because at Xmas i spend a FORTUNE on Adwords, but no issue because i do a fortune in Xmas sales. Its a shame i cant just rely on organic results.
     
  8. snoopy

    snoopy Membership: VIP

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    Why would it reduce a competitors bids?
     
  9. snoopy

    snoopy Membership: VIP

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    That would only be the case if they were similar at similar levels ie bid X quality score etc. A clear leader will always get ranked no.1.

    That is a zero sum game and will do nothing for you either short term or long term. In that situation Google with increase your quality score, reduce your CPC and you'll pay for your own clicks. You might as well just bid higher which will have exactly the same effect, in other words, spend more and get ranked higher. As soon as you stop bidding on on your own ads your CTR will drop, you won't be paying for your own clicks & your quality score will fall, ie spend less and get ranked lower.

    People "get there" by having strong ads that convert.

    That is an even worse idea as it actually wastes money, and totally against google policies.

    The result would have been the same if you'd done nothing.
     
  10. snoopy

    snoopy Membership: VIP

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    I think you are in a good position making it works with adwords. Organic listings are dying a slow death. Your site is good, the best ecommerce effort I have seen on here.
     
  11. findtim

    findtim Membership: VIP

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    auDA Member:
    Yes
    thats the only thing i totally agree with, but you need to create it quickly. quickly meaning in some markets means months.

    its about fast track or slow track to top position, my P&L says that my suggestions work.

    once you are "IN" then you can drop the crap, which i agree is crap.

    bottom line is i agree with you snoopy on your comments, i was just saying what has been succesful for me, NOTE: if you are not onto it each day then you can get nailed by google.

    tim
     
  12. Chris.C

    Chris.C Membership: VIP

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    I think you have misunderstood what an economic race to the bottom implies:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_bottom

    I'm not saying that AdWords isn't lucrative today - I KNOW it is. But I've been managing large AdWords campaigns for over 6 years now, so I have boatloads of data on how much higher CPCs have been pushed due to additional competitors joining the market, ie I just pulled up a client's account and got this:

    2008 CPC - $1.56 - Avg Pos - 2.0
    2012 CPC - $3.36 - Avg Pos - 2.1

    That's a 115% increase over 5 years.

    That's a 17% increase in CPC per year.

    Now of course I understand that if we improve conversion rates of our landing pages then we can justify higher CPCs - but it's still an economic race to the bottom because everyone is doing the exact same thing (ie refining their ad copy and landing pages).

    Think of it like this, last month we finished testing a new landing page design which achieved a 50% better conversion rate. So we were like, "sweet now that our cost per conversion has dropped well below our profit maximising point lets increase our CPC so that we can capture more market share".

    That's a logical decision, until your competitor launches their new landing page which allows them to up their CPC which pushes yours ad back to it's original position.

    So the ultimate result is that you have gone nowhere in that you have an ad in the same position, but you are just paying more per click now meaning your cost per conversion has not change.

    Only real long term winner - Google.

    It's quite the racket they got going.

    But don't get me wrong, the client still does very well out of using AdWords, we estimate that every visitor to their site is worth $8 - $9 in profit and on average we are still only paying $3.36. So we still have quite a bit of margin to play with and I still have a few tricks up my sleeve in regards to further refining the landing pages, but that doesn't mean I don't see the long term inevitability of this AdWord warfare.

    And no one wins from war except the arms dealers, which in this case is Google.

    :D

    I actually don't think CPC has much to do with it at all, max CPC is determined by three things, the first two you mentioned CTR and conversion rate are indeed important, but what's more important:

    Product profit margin - it doesn't matter how good your CTR and conversion rate are if you don't have a profit margin or if your profit margin is only 25% of your competitor's profit margin.

    CPC is just a derivative of these 3 things, because it allows you to work out your profit per visitor then, once you know that you should be willing to pay up to that point but not over.

    ;)

    Yeah that's what I plan to do.

    Plus you will be paying twice for the same lead...

    :(

    I actually spoke with a Google AdWords rep about this issue a couple of months ago, what they said to me was that they probably wouldn't care if the ad pointed to page that offered a "different user experience".

    ie duplicating your site or landing page on a different domain then running two adwords campaigns obviously wouldn't cut it, but if the second site was completely different you could potentially justify it. So I was thinking of maybe creating one site as a simple lead gen and the other as direct online sales.
     
  13. snoopy

    snoopy Membership: VIP

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    Disagree that Google is the only long term winner, if sites get more and more efficient at converting sales and ad copy gets better that will result in the size of the revenue pie being larger. Instead of 1 in 1000 people who search for something buying it might be 1 in 100.

    I wouldn't call it a racket either, it is no different to any other form of advertising, space is limited and only the strongest advertisers will get space. Price of advertising is almost always dictated by what the market will pay.

    They've got a policy on when it will be allowed and that is basically it, I think it has been discussed here once before,

    "Violations of this policy occur when multiple websites share Common Ownership (defined below), plus when two or more of the following factors are present:"

    http://support.google.com/adwordspolicy/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=2600168
     
  14. Chris.C

    Chris.C Membership: VIP

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    Alright alright, I was just having a bit of a rant because I was in a pissy mood and I take it out on Google occasionally. So don't call me on the technicalities...

    :p

    Yes, Google won't be the ONLY winner, but I suspect it will be the biggest.

    Though with that will come a lot of consolidation in many industries as those that optimise their online sales funnels get out ahead of the pack and will probably do quite well for themselves and I suspect that many laggards will be left behind as many industries remodel the way they do business.

    Of course this is nothing new - just the way capitalism works. Of course it's hard not to be jealous when most businesses have been slowly growing or treading water over the last 5 years while Google's advertising revenues have grown 350%...

    :eek:

    So whilst it's not a "racket" with those sorts of returns, it just feels like one. Especially given that it seems with every passing year they are becoming a bigger and bigger percentage of business's advertising budgets.

    :rolleyes:

    That said, I still think Google is awesome and that they offer an invaluable service to society and they do deserve the wealth that its generating.

    But when you are the only game in town profiteering is inevitable.