NetFleet Catalogue Offer Change?

[Chris.C]

I noticed you changed the offer/counter offer system of late...

So now when a domain owner makes a counter offer it automatically rejects the original offer...

It should go without saying but this suggestion falls under the...

"Hey, Cyrus. It's your barbecue man, and it tastes good, but I was just telling Mr. "Dog" here that if it was "my" barbecue, I would wait for that ol' jumbo jet in the sky bafore I start killing off the only leverage we have."

Anyway, I can't wrap my head why you would you do that? It totally stifles the negotiation because you've made it an all or nothing scenario in an industry where buyers that actively seek you (on a per domain basis) are few are far between so you don't want to completely burn any prospect.

And ultimately it will reduce the end selling prices, which is what you guys are paid on.

So why can't a domain owner continue to submit counter offers without voiding the original offer...?

I have sold domains on your platform numerous times where I have made offers and counter offers back and forth where ultimately it has been I who has accepted the buyers last offer in spite of having an outstanding counter offer.

Also I know in the past sending a counter offer in the final 24 hours of their originally offer has been an effective technique of getting them to come back with another counter offer and not to give them a better price - often my counter offer has been close to the same - but because I wanted them to simply receive another email reminder that they are negotiating for a domain.

Anyway my point is I'm VERY disappointed with the change...

I seriously hope you reconsider.

What does everyone else think?

 

[goldnugget]

Hmmm I have only just listed 4 domans, 2 on no reserve Auction, 2 in the catalog....will be interesting to see how this affects me when (if) the time comes.

 

[AnthonyP]

Chris,

Think about how confusing it is for a buyer when this happens.
They have often moved on and made an offer on another domain or hit a BIN price or even hand registered a domain by the time you accept their offer so it seems really unfair and extremely confusing for them when I try to enforce the sale.

It was not by design that we allowed you to accept an offer after counter offering (with no other input from the buyer) it was a bug which was fixed about a month ago.

If the buyer is still interested, then they can still make another offer or accept your counter offer.

I am pretty sure we email the buyer when there is 24 hours to go to remind them about the sale so there is no need for the double counter offer either.

 

[Chris.C]

Think about how confusing it is for a buyer when this happens. They have often moved on and made an offer on another domain or hit a BIN price or even hand registered a domain by the time you accept their offer so it seems really unfair and extremely confusing for them when I try to enforce the sale.

I get your point, but I think you are vastly overstating the confusion and the number of substitute domains there are.

If you see a house you like and you decide to make an offer on it, you just submit your offer, subject to your terms, which normally includes the amount of time it is valid for.

If the owner of that house comes back and says, they are looking for a bit more. That doesn't mean the owner has rejected the offer, it just means they are asking for more.

People don't mind haggling a bit and someone who has made an offer that is 60% of a BIN has to be ready for some negotiation because they are the one initiating it not the seller. The seller has played their hand by putting a BIN on the domain if the buyer doesn't want to play that game it's their choice.

SO I'll give you my current situation - let's say I have someone offer $500 for a domain I've listed on NF for $1000.

The first thing I think is - great a serious buyer.

The second thing I think is, hmm it's lower than what I think is a fair price, which might be $750.

Now with the new system, the third thing I think is - shit, if I counter offer with $750, it will mean I have to permanently reject the $500 offer!!

Now anyone who has ever sold a domain before knows that on an individual domain basis buyers who approach you and aren't bargain hunting are few and far between so you'd be crazy not to consider any offer that is 50% of your BIN price.

But with NetFleet there is no recourse because they don't give you the customer details. So if you counter offer with $750 and they don't bite, the sale is lost, because there is no way to contact them to salvage the deal or to even take a lower price (like $600) to them.

And let's please deal with reality, I'm pretty sure most buyers don't go making dozens of offers on lots of alternative domains just because someone gives them a counter offer (not that alternatives are common is there are any at all).

In my experience, when someone makes an offer on a domain they are happy to buy it at that price in the future as well. I've had offers on domains that I have rejected over a year ago because their offer was too low, then decided a year later I should have taken the offer and contacted them asking for close to their previous offering price and they often say yes. So a day or two is not going to make a difference.

If you really want to speed the process along simply make original offers last 7 days, but then make counter offers last 48 hours, and buyers subsequent offers 48 hours, but don't remove the ability to counter offer.

It was not by design that we allowed you to accept an offer after counter offering (with no other input from the buyer) it was a bug which was fixed about a month ago.

The new design works fine, when you have tyre kickers who are offering $100 in their initial offers (I have no problem rejecting those offers when I make a counter offer).

However it doesn't work well when someone has made a decent, but low offer and some negotiation is required.

If the buyer is still interested, then they can still make another offer or accept your counter offer.

But they won't.

And because we don't have their details we can't salvage the deal if we change our mind.

I am pretty sure we email the buyer when there is 24 hours to go to remind them about the sale so there is no need for the double counter offer either.

I'm sure you do - but like I said that automated email never got someone making a new offer on one of my domains, but when I counter offered them with a lower price in a few days before their original offer expired 20% - 30% of the time that would often get another offer out of them.

Look at the end of the day you guys can do what you want, but I think you are building your systems around "nice ideas" that don't work in reality.

 

[Lucas]

But with NetFleet there is no recourse because they don't give you the customer details. So if you counter offer with $750 and they don't bite, the sale is lost, because there is no way to contact them to salvage the deal or to even take a lower price (like $600) to them.

I totally agree with Chris on this.

For a system promoting sales (and profiting from said sales) there is not much negotiating room.

Like Chris if someone makes an offer I really have to think hard about counter offering because I know that might kill the negotiation. Its a bit like an ultimatum to the seller. Take this offer or risk losing the sale altogether.

The following seems a perfectly normal process to me: interested buyer offers $5000 for a product listed at $10000. Seller thinks well that is not too bad of an offer but I will try for more so counter offers at $9000. Buyer does not respond. Seller decides actually $9000 was a bit high will counter offer $7000. Buyer still does not respond. Seller thinks for a few days and decides $5000 is good enough and contacts buyer to make the deal. Happens all the time.

So if there was some way to counter offer and then if no bites make a non-binding lower counter offer that would solve part of the problem. That way if a buyer had moved on and made offers on other similar domains they would not be obliged to complete the purchase if they had received a counter offer at the same price as their initial offer.

Also would be good to be able to contact the buyer 6 or even 12 months after their initial offer if you were willing to take the initial offer amount because for example you have received no better offers. I have a few domains that I would still be happy to purchase at my final offer that sellers now have no way to contact me about.

What would fix all of these problems is to be able to actually have communication with the other party directly or through Netfleet.

 

[Chris.C]

Also would be good to be able to contact the buyer 6 or even 12 months after their initial offer if you were willing to take the initial offer amount because for example you have received no better offers. I have a few domains that I would still be happy to purchase at my final offer that sellers now have no way to contact me about.

100% agree and would be very keen to open that old can of worms...

https://www.dntrade.com.au/netfleet-com-au/6914-sending-new-counter-offers-old-offers.html

What would fix all of these problems is to be able to actually have communication with the other party directly or through Netfleet.

Now we at touching a sensitive area, and I'd love to hear NetFleet's thoughts on this topic.

 

[AnthonyP]

I get your point, but I think you are vastly overstating the confusion and the number of substitute domains there are.

I am not overstating anything. The issue exists and has happened multiple times in the last 6 months.

People don't mind haggling a bit and someone who has made an offer that is 60% of a BIN has to be ready for some negotiation because they are the one initiating it not the seller. The seller has played their hand by putting a BIN on the domain if the buyer doesn't want to play that game it's their choice.

If the buyer wants to keep haggling they will keep counter offering. If they don't make a new offer then they are not keen on haggling and or have moved on.

I am happy to look at ways to get them back to the table but forcing them into a binding sale after you counter offer has upset multiple buyers.

In my experience, when someone makes an offer on a domain they are happy to buy it at that price in the future as well. I've had offers on domains that I have rejected over a year ago because their offer was too low, then decided a year later I should have taken the offer and contacted them asking for close to their previous offering price and they often say yes. So a day or two is not going to make a difference.

As you pointed out you contact them asking them to close, you don't just send them an invoice and expect them to pay!

We will need to look into adding something to the system to let a seller get back to a buyer but the buyer has to have some say in the process, just forcing a binding sale on them is not the solution.

 

[goldnugget]

I havent dealt with this process yet but I think I understand the basis of the requests/concerns.

Happy to be corrected on anything below:

Basicly as it stands a buyer can make an offer and if the seller rejects at that time and comes back with a counter offer, but decide after the close of the timeline (after there was no return offer from the buyer from their counter offer)that the original offer the buyer put forward may not have been as bad as what they thought and decide to follow it up for a sale.

To me (if its based on the above scenario) this sounds like a really clumsy way to do any sale for anything on any format. So using a house as an example, you reject an offer that was on the table, you counter offer the buyer walks, then in a few weeks or months you decide to tell the agent 'Hey, ring those people and tell them I've changed my mind' and expect them to come back to the table?

However to accomodate those that want to do business this way, there may be a solution. At the end of the negotiation period where there has been no resolution to a sale, in the final reminder sent to the seller that the period is closing, remind them (the buyer) that they are free to put in another offer on the domain or have a checkbox that says they want to be notified of the domain relisting or if another open offer has been placed on the domain. At least that way if the buyer chooses to maintain interest they can say so via the check box, outside of that I would consider the seller has made a concious decision to walk away for good.

To follow up a potential buyer several months down the track giving in to their offer I dont think is a good way to go and shows desperation on behalf of the seller.

Like I said, just my thoughts providing that I have the details correct based on the above scenario.

 

[Chris.C]

SO I'll give you my current situation - let's say I have someone offer $500 for a domain I've listed on NF for $1000.

The first thing I think is - great a serious buyer.

The second thing I think is, hmm it's lower than what I think is a fair price, which might be $750.

Now with the new system, the third thing I think is - shit, if I counter offer with $750, it will mean I have to permanently reject the $500 offer!!

Now anyone who has ever sold a domain before knows that on an individual domain basis buyers who approach you and aren't bargain hunting are few and far between so you'd be crazy not to consider any offer that is 50% of your BIN price.

But with NetFleet there is no recourse because they don't give you the customer details. So if you counter offer with $750 and they don't bite, the sale is lost, because there is no way to contact them to salvage the deal or to even take a lower price (like $600) to them.

OK so I'm pretty annoyed now...

I bit the bullet and accepted the first offer instead of counter offering like I normally would... and guess what... it looks like the buyer has flaked completely!

This has virtually never happened before... and then it hit me...

I over looked this previously, but I suspect what has happened is that they have made their offer at 60% of the BIN thinking they'll haggle for a better price and so when I've gone and accepted their first offer because I didn't want to lose the deal for the sake of another 20% they've probably thought "shit I'm an idiot I've offered too much if he was willing to accept my first offer"...

me accepting his first offer has destroyed his sense of getting a bargain.

Which is another classic reason why this accept or reject policy is actually counter productive and just not the way negotiating works in reality!

In the past I have had people offer to purchase domains for a price that is twice what I thought was fair, so by NetFleet logic I should instantly accept, but my response was still "thanks for your generous offer but I was looking for about 20 - 30% more" to which they often say "I'll give you another 10%" to which I say "damn you drive a hard bargain, but OK".

The truth was, if they had of said "take it or leave it" I would also be like "damn you drive a hard bargain, but OK".

The point is not the money, it's about leaving the buyer happy. They need to believe they got the best deal possible - it is critical for closing a sale yet this new NetFleet system destroys that!

 

[johno69]

Have you ever thought you might just be over thinking things a little sometimes?

Maybe they made an offer, then life got busy. It happens.

 

[Chris.C]

Have you ever thought you might just be over thinking things a little sometimes?

So you disagree?

Maybe they made an offer, then life got busy. It happens.

So then by your logic, once life gets unbusy they should be more than happy to follow through on the deal...

 

[johno69]

So you disagree?

I think you over analyse everything.

If I agree or not makes no difference.

By counter offering, you are saying "I will not sell for what you offered". If you then change your mind and decide to take it, would you also give them the option to change their mind and say, "Not interested any more"?

Sounds like you want to lock them in while trying to squeeze them for everything you can.

Not really a level playing field there.

So then by your logic, once life gets unbusy they should be more than happy to follow through on the deal...

Exactly yes.

 

[Chris.C]

By counter offering, you are saying "I will not sell for what you offered". If you then change your mind and decide to take it, would you also give them the option to change their mind and say, "Not interested any more"?

They already have this option when they don't pay and NetFleet doesn't follow up nor gives you any of their details!

Sounds like you want to lock them in while trying to squeeze them for everything you can.

God forbid I want the best deal I can get.

We only get to sell domains once. Once they are gone, they are gone.

And the same goes for NetFleet's commission, when an end user buys a domain - that domain isn't coming back to market anytime soon, so they are only likely to make a commission once...

Not really a level playing field there.

But this is the thing that is starting to get to me - all the advantages are stacked in favour of the buyer in spite of the fact the seller is paying...

The seller gets no info about the buyer (yet the buyer knows everything about the seller via whois), the seller has no recourse if the buyer renegs (NetFleet kicks sellers off if they reneg), only the buyers can send offers (the seller has no ability to initiate an offer nor can they can't send new offers to old leads) and when buyers do submit an offer a seller can't counter offer without rejecting the initial offer nor can seller offer a lower counter offer if the buyer doesn't response (yet the buyers can send through a new higher offer if they don't get a response)...

Like I've said, this is NetFleet's baby and they can do what they want with it, but giving sellers reasons to consider making their sales via other mediums or facilitating buyers to obtain cheaper prices (which lowers commissions) probably isn't the long term business strategy I'd be pursuing.

Just saying...

 

[Chris.C]

nor can seller offer a lower counter offer if the buyer doesn't response (yet the buyers can send through a new higher offer if they don't get a response)

OK this happened to me today and it is starting to piss me off...

Someone did the typical tyre kicking $100 initial offer on a domain listed for ~$1600 (minimum bids please) and like I always do, just to show them that this domain is for sale and that I will respond I send through a counter offer (and I have no problem having this sort of bid rejected when counter offering ) but in his next offer the guy only ups his bid to a couple hundred and I start to see we aren't going to find middle ground. So I do what I always do when I'm sick of negotiating with time wasters, I send my best offer, and then just walk away.

Anyway he counter offers by adding another hundred to his offer, but he is still no where near my best price, so I just ignore it, then a few days later he gets the message, but rather than offer something serious he just sends through a new offer with an extra $20..

I think its time for you to create a "take or leave it" option when we can send through a counter offer that is final - ie the buyer can either pay it or go away, but from that point forward they can't contact us (just as we can't contact them).