Mislead about betting.co.nz

[steveau]

Hi all

I feel like I have been a little mislead about a recent purchase I made. I brought the domain betting.co.nz from Ryan Bunter from Westnet (gubgubgub on this forum). He advertised how the every New Zealand citizen spends on average $1,604 on betting and how he was planning to take advantage of this lucrative industry by creating an affiliate based website.

I went ahead and purchased the domain on this basis. Knowing how to make websites, I planned to make back my $1,500 investment by doing what Ryan had discussed. All went smoothly until I realised that New Zealand has very restrictive betting laws, which prevents anyone from betting online. It is thus useless to create an affiliate website as all the betting (and all the exchange of money) is done offline. Any one who lives in the country knows this.

I tried to contact Ryan but with no luck. He usually responds within an instant but ironically, he is choosing not to this time. I am young and so $1,500 is a large investment for me. With the deal, I threw in my most valuable Australian domain (moneymaking.com.au) and said that if he did agree to kindly refund the money, then I would let him keep my domain.

If he continues not to respond, is it worth taking this to a small claims court to at least see what a judge makes of it... or is it not worth the effort? By the way, I accept some of the responsibility here as I should have researched the laws but I assumed it wa possible because of my discussions.

Any help anyone can provide, would be much appreciated.

Kind regards,
Steve

 

[DavidL]

That's a very unfortunate story, Steve. I don't think there's anything you can really do except appeal to his sense of decency.

He might not have been properly aware himself though? Maybe he didn't go as far as checking legality himself?

Good luck with it - there might be other ways you can still make the most with the domain - advertising supported website about betting? Due to the legal restructions there might be minimal competition?

 

[steveau]

Netfleet

Thanks for the reply. I do not think he was properly aware but nevertheless, he told me that the affiliate offers were lucrative when as a matter of fact, they are non-existent in the New Zealand market. So while I think he was not aware of the betting laws, he told me a lot of information that turned out to be either completely untrue or irrelevant.

By the way, he replied and said that he was not interested in buying the domain back.

Kind regards,
Steve

 

[GubbGubb]

Hi,

I just became aware of this thread and am genuinely interested in some opinions on whether you believe I have acted in an acceptable manner during this sale.

With Steve's permission I'll post the entire conversation we had via email (with just personal/banking info removed).

My side of the story is basically this:

- I had plans to develop betting.co.nz into an affiliate website and I told Steve this.

- I made no assertions about the legalities of a betting website in NZ and I still have no knowledge (apart from what Steve has subsequently told me) about the legalities of a betting website in NZ.

- Steve and I agreed on a deal and the transaction went really smoothly.

- I get an email from Steve yesterday politely asking me to refund the money because he feels he has been mislead by my comments about my plans to develop the site.

- I'm in the middle of changing of jobs and so am pretty busy at the moment but I respond in roughly 24 hours explaining that I could not see how I mislead Steve. As far as I was concerned I sold a domain and nothing more.

- After a few emails Steve tells me he has paid for a hearing at VCAT and I'll need to come to Melbourne (from Perth) to represent myself.

I'm genuinely surprised by all of this and it has certainly ended any thoughts I had about buying and selling more domains (this being my first sale).

 

[GubbGubb]

Sorry, one more thing I should point out is that prior to the sale I joined four different betting affiliate programs with betting.co.nz listed as my website and was accepted into all four.

 

[Jonathan]

Gubb: Are the betting affiliate programs open to New Zealanders?

Steve: It's still a good domain name. If you developed it and put up a few adsense blocks you'd probably get a nice little stream of income once it was ranking in the SE's. And what about selling ebooks on various betting strategies? Or turning it into a paid directory. I assume there's nothing illegal about bookies advertising online?

 

[GubbGubb]

cycloptik: I'm not sure but I put on all of my applications that I am from Australia. Steve is from Australia too so I can't see why he couldn't join the same programs.

I also know that Betfair.com (one of the programs I joined) accepts New Zealand players. I haven't checked the other three though.

This quote from http://www.findlaw.com/12international/countries/nz/articles/440.html might also be relevant:

So you want to start your own internet betting site... You've checked out some of the online betting/gambling offerings (an estimated 700 - 800 internet gaming sites operate worldwide) and you think you've got a better product.

The bad news is, if you live in New Zealand and want to set up an internet betting/gambling site in New Zealand, targeted at New Zealanders, then unless you're the TAB it's probably illegal. However, as the current gaming laws do not effectively address the issues surrounding cross border electronic gaming, if you set up an internet betting/gambling site and base it in another part of the world (where it is legal to do so, eg. Antigua) then (in practice) it is likely that New Zealanders will be able to access and participate in this internet betting/gambling site. This may be an attractive alternative, especially given the ease with which you can remotely run and operate an e-business these days.

This is actually talking about setting up your own betting site which is obviously a world away from a site just advertising betting sites.

I think Steve should be sure that he can't develop this into an affiliate website before making me take time off work and paying for flights across the country.

 

[DomainMarketPlace]

I'm not up with NZ politics but i wouldn't be surprised if this policy is revised soon. Online gambling seems to be booming in AUS at the moment and the government stands to receive a healthy stake in taxes.

The last 5 years have seen a dramatic shift in punters attitudes towards betting online. All you have to do is look at any sports coverage in AU and the online sites are all over it.

 

[GubbGubb]

So anyone have any opinions on what would be a fair outcome in this situation?

The transaction happened 3 weeks ago and I invested that money into other domains pretty much straight away.

 

[soj]

The laws are a very grey area, but i think your looking at this all wrong steve. Online poker is banned in the US, so many sites were shifted offshore and many many Americans still play on all these poker sites and bet like crazy. I think this would be the same situation with the NZ laws (but don't trust me on this), I would assume that in NZ you cannot run a betting site, though as a New Zealander, theres nothing stopping you from betting online, on other sites, like aussie Sportsbet, etc. This way with betting.co.nz I would assume that you could make a site advertising all the options for New Zealanders to gamble legitimately using offshore companies, mostly from Australia. You will need to seek out the actual rules in regards to this to make sure as I don't know it 100%

 

[GubbGubb]

Steve, I've sent you another e-mail but let me know what you want from all of this.

I'm still not comfortable with just handing over $1500 which is what your expectations seem to currently be.

We both know you have the bargaining power given that it will probably cost me in the region of $2K just to defend myself (flights, accommodation and lost work) but I'm acting in good faith that your actions are not motivated by that fact.

I'm still completely perplexed by all of this and don't understand what I've done wrong.

 

[Data Glasses]

boy oh boy ..... this is a sticky one ??

May i suggest that the domain moneymaking be returned and assistance offered to develop the betting domain by gubb gubb advice and technical ?

I do think that domain (betting has potential)

Of course this is none of my business , just trying to offer a solution to both of you

I wish you both well !

 

[GubbGubb]

Just a heads up for anyone thinking of doing any business with Steve, this issue has escalated significantly in my opinion.

After making it clear I won't be refunding his money I offered Steve his pick of my domains. He is only interested in a refund and so Steve tells me he'll be continuing with his plans to take me to Small Claims over the issue.

Then, this morning he sends me an e-mail saying he has asked his uncle/s to pay me a visit at my home. With a young family at home I of course said that his relatives/associates don't have my permission to visit my home but they can call my mobile to arrange a meeting.

His response was as follows (bolding is his):